There's an Italian tradition where, when somebody kills themselves, they take them outside of the town and bury them where two roads cross, becasue that person came to a crossroads in life and didn't have the strength to carry on, and now the people that did have the strength can walk over them forever. And yes, I do know people that have killed themselves, my history teacher who was like an uncle to me did this year.
I would consider a selfish and hostile suicide those of the suicide bombers, although in there mind they thing they are doing good. Things we always be how we choose to see them in our own personal views so on a topic like this it is impossible to generalize, Sociologist do not get far enough recognition I think.
I read your post on that blog. It's good that nowadays there are public forums like blogs and RMM where one can share one's feelings openly.
If you are successful in committing suicide, you will have committed:
An extremely self-centered and selfish act which will hurt and emotionally scar the people you leave behind.
An enormous "get back'' or act of revenge which will no doubt leave the survivors with intense guilt, self-doubt, anger, bitterness, rage, and emotional trauma.
Your last effort to control people in your life.
If you are successful in committing suicide, you will have committed:
An extremely self-centered and selfish act which will hurt and emotionally scar the people you leave behind.
An enormous "get back'' or act of revenge which will no doubt leave the survivors with intense guilt, self-doubt, anger, bitterness, rage, and emotional trauma.
Your last effort to control people in your life.
The above is written by two PhD's.
The exact kind of people that annoy me. I wonder how many of them simply got there psych knowledge from reading books or how many actually have been through a lot of shit in there life.
TO me expierance, is the differance between a good psychologist and a wack job. I am not sure if I even want to read the link the blurb you posted is enough to boil my blood.
All the Docs I have met in my life relating to the field would not agree with that.
The exact kind of people that annoy me. I wonder how many of them simply got there psych knowledge from reading books or how many actually have been through a lot of shit in there life.
TO me expierance, is the differance between a good psychologist and a wack job. I am not sure if I even want to read the link the blurb you posted is enough to boil my blood.
All the Docs I have met in my life relating to the field would not agree with that.
It's a controversial topic. What makes the doc's you have read the expert? There's a link that I didn't provide, but it was hospital release notes for a patient who was suicidal. As part of the exit interview, the person "acknowledged that the act of suicide was selfish". The doctors noted it as progress and a factor (one of them) in releasing the person.
That is not to say, however, that there are people who are so mentally disturbed, or in such emotional pain, that they are incapable of considering the effect they will have on others.
There was also a great link where relatives and friends of people who committed suicide talked about the devastation they feel at what happened. And how some of them now are considering suicide themselves.
I'm not gonna get into an argument about suicidal motives, but I think we can agree(but we probably won't) that people that take their own lives do it for many different reasons, just as taking someone else's life(murder) is done for many different reasons. To say taking someone off life support and drive by shooting someone are the same is stupid, so why should suicide be much different.
Sure some people kill themselves to "get back" at others, but some (and probably a lot) of people suffering from deep depression do it as just the opposite or for reasons that a "normal" person just couldn't comprehend. It's like trying to explain what -40 winter day feels like to a person who has lived their life in Florida. They just wouldn't understand it no matter how you tried to explain it even if they thought they did. Then take them up to Saskatchewan in the middle of Janaury and they'd be like, "Oh my Lord! I had NO IDEA!" Yeah a rudimentary analogy but it illustrates the point pretty well. When someone's brain chemistry starts getting messed up, it really is hard to think straight.
It's a controversial topic. What makes the doc's you have read the expert? There's a link that I didn't provide, but it was hospital release notes for a patient who was suicidal. As part of the exit interview, the person "acknowledged that the act of suicide was selfish". The doctors noted it as progress and a factor (one of them) in releasing the person.
That is not to say, however, that there are people who are so mentally disturbed, or in such emotional pain, that they are incapable of considering the effect they will have on others.
There was also a great link where relatives and friends of people who committed suicide talked about the devastation they feel at what happened. And how some of them now are considering suicide themselves.
It wasn't docs I read Issac it was Doc's I have SPOKE TOO, and talked about a lot of personal exp. with them mine and there, I have lost 3 people to suicide now so I know the effects and I was almost there myself as well so I know that side of it as well.
I don't agree with people becoming shrinks that have no life exp in dealing with the traumas they are gonna help people with, I mean at least something to give you more than just book knowledge on what people are going through there are people in my class that will talk straight from the book and when you ask them questions that would require a personal exp they draw blank and go back to quoting different therorist and stuff. These people will sit there and pass on so many judgments and gerneralize and sterotype in class discussions and it makes me sick.
I'm not gonna get into an argument about suicidal motives, but I think we can agree(but we probably won't) that people that take their own lives do it for many different reasons, just as taking someone else's life(murder) is done for many different reasons. To say taking someone off life support and drive by shooting someone are the same is stupid, so why should suicide be much different.
Sure some people kill themselves to "get back" at others, but some (and probably a lot) of people suffering from deep depression do it as just the opposite or for reasons that a "normal" person just couldn't comprehend. It's like trying to explain what -40 winter day feels like to a person who has lived their life in Florida. They just wouldn't understand it no matter how you tried to explain it even if they thought they did. Then take them up to Saskatchewan in the middle of Janaury and they'd be like, "Oh my Lord! I had NO IDEA!" Yeah a rudimentary analogy but it illustrates the point pretty well. When someone's brain chemistry starts getting messed up, it really is hard to think straight.
It wasn't docs I read Issac it was Doc's I have SPOKE TOO, and talked about a lot of personal exp. with them mine and there, I have lost 3 people to suicide now so I know the effects and I was almost there myself as well so I know that side of it as well.
I don't agree with people becoming shrinks that have no life exp in dealing with the traumas they are gonna help people with, I mean at least something to give you more than just book knowledge on what people are going through there are people in my class that will talk straight from the book and when you ask them questions that would require a personal exp they draw blank and go back to quoting different therorist and stuff. These people will sit there and pass on so many judgments and gerneralize and sterotype in class discussions and it makes me sick.
Diane, I'm not sure how any of what you said is a rebuttal to the idea that suicide might be selfish.
If you solve a problem of yours, knowing in advance it will do great harm to somebody around you, a lot of people - theoreticians as well as people "on the ground" - would agree that that was selfish.
And to respond to someone's earlier thread, being selfish is not necessarily a deliberate act or one done with intent. Taking the last coke out of the fridge can be selfish but not done deliberately. What I'm saying is that selfishness is not necessarily done with intent.
Diane, I'm not sure how any of what you said is a rebuttal to the idea that suicide might be selfish.
If you solve a problem of yours, knowing in advance it will do great harm to somebody around you, a lot of people - theoreticians as well as people "on the ground" - would agree that that was selfish.
And to respond to someone's earlier thread, being selfish is not necessarily a deliberate act or one done with intent. Taking the last coke out of the fridge can be selfish but not done deliberately. What I'm saying is that selfishness is not necessarily done with intent.
Issac I already talked about the selfish part of it in this thread. But I could also say that it is selfish for the family members to think about only there feelings and the impact on them why aren't they thinking about what the person was going through and how sad life must have been for them to feel the need to kill themselves.
Like stated though Suicide is commited for a variety of reason's I am only speaking about the ones that commit it because of a mental breakdown in themselves, not as an act of revenge or religion or spite what have you but I am talking about the people that kill themselves because they are at such a low point in there life they feel death is the only answer.
The majority of people that kill themselves are for this reason, who says taking the last coke is selfish?? Is it selfish that someone not there felt it should be for them?? It can go both ways but regardless the statement you put up from whoever was very harsh and cold and black and white, mental issues will not be and will never be BLACK AND WHITE so for someone to make such a matter a fact statement regarding a very greay area is showing there own ignorance and lack of knowlege on the subject.
Anyway thats enough for me for now I am gonna go to class.
focussing on it being a "selfish" act is a little short sighted, especially when what is considered selfish, by whom, and when, is pretty subjective. If a hermit living by himself with no ties to anyone kills himself, does it cease to be a selfish act?
focussing on it being a "selfish" act is a little short sighted, especially when what is considered selfish, by whom, and when, is pretty subjective. If a hermit living by himself with no ties to anyone kills himself, does it cease to be a selfish act?
gnappster, I believe that you have stated probably one of the few cases where committing suicide isn't selfish.
Others include police officers or someone who sacrifices their lives to save others. Although, that is not usually deemed suicide....
However, when you are going to leave grieving mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers, and (God help you) children behind? Come on.... After reading the messages of those left behind, I'm pretty convinced that suicide, in most cases, is the OPPOSITE of a selfless act. For example, if you were really considering your children's needs and feelings more than your own, would you commit suicide? I don't think so. Or considering your siblings and/or parents? No.
And, please forgive me, for not tracking all the way through this thread, what are the legitimite reasons for killing yourself, other than to save someone else or avoid the final stages of a painful terminal illness? Because you are sad, psychologically or chemically? Is that a good excuse?
Just on an anthropological level, suicide makes no sense. One of the most basic human instincts (dovetailing with Maslow's hierarchy) is self survival and propagation of the species. Someone who self terminates is not thinking in their right mind.
gnappster, I believe that you have stated probably one of the few cases where committing suicide isn't selfish.
Others include police officers or someone who sacrifices their lives to save others. Although, that is not usually deemed suicide....
However, when you are going to leave grieving mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers, and (God help you) children behind? Come on.... After reading the messages of those left behind, I'm pretty convinced that suicide, in most cases, is the OPPOSITE of a selfless act. For example, if you were really considering your children's needs and feelings more than your own, would you commit suicide? I don't think so. Or considering your siblings and/or parents? No.
And, please forgive me, for not tracking all the way through this thread, what are the legitimite reasons for killing yourself, other than to save someone else or avoid the final stages of a painful terminal illness? Because you are sad, psychologically or chemically? Is that a good excuse?
Just on an anthropological level, suicide makes no sense. One of the most basic human instincts (dovetailing with Maslow's hierarchy) is self survival and propagation of the species. Someone who self terminates is not thinking in their right mind.
I never said it was a GOOD decision, but the intent is often one of goodness, or negating that, at least not one of being selfish. And being chemically imbalanced isn't a good excuse either although it is often a cause.
And on an anthropological level suicide makes no sense, but planty of cultures have practiced it throughout history. The Innuit for example, older people would basically starve themselves to death during hard winters so that the younger people could survive. A different form of suicide but suicide none the less. And they would view that as a selfless act.
From an evolutionary standpoint, yes, suicide makes no sense, but many things we do don't make any sense, evolutionarily speaking. Being in a monogamous relationship is an example. But our social and cultural structure has helped to define this as a desireable trait.
Saying that it is not a good excuse to kill yourself because you are sad, psychologically or chemically(often one in the same) is very true. But it seems like you fail to grip the difference of being sad or blue and suffering from clinical depression(of which there are many levels). And that's the motive for suicide I'm speaking more about. Its like the difference between having a cold and having lung cancer.
Personally, I've never felt the deep reaching power of depression. But I've struggled with bouts of Sesonal Affective Disorder years back, and when you're in that state of mind it really is like you're not yourself. I've never felt even close to suicide or anything, but it's never a case of "cheering up". It's like a feeling you can't shake. It really is hard to explain. But having experienced it even to a tiny degree, I can how people end up how they do.
BTW, I cured my S.A.D. with lots of exercise. Endorphin, testoterone and seatonin dumps in the brain are better than any drug!
Issac, to say it is selfish depends on what side of the fence you are on. There will always be the other side.
The hermit man wasn't selfish cause he had no one else to love him??? How sad is that??
Anyway let's say it is JUST you and your wife. Lets say she is at a point in her life she wants it to be done, for whatever reason you don't understand and your won't understand cause it is not your brain, but you feel she is being selfish cause she isn't thinking about you and your feelings and how it will effect you. notice all the you's??? Why is it YOU are not being selfish in wanting her to live a live she is not wanting to live??
I mean to look at things like that we can find something selfish in about every thing we do cause as long as you are putting yourself and your feelings first you are being selfish.
Suicide will never make sense, trying to get it to make sense will only make it more confusing. But until you have walked a mile in the shoes of a person that is at that point to say who they are and what they are all about is bullshit to say the least.
A person who has OVERCOME severe mental trauma and battled that war will come close to understanding but even there case would be different since we are all different. But I personaly feel it is selfish to trash someone who has commited suicide cause it hurt you and to not stop and consider what they are going through. Maybe if more people cared about others feelings and less about themselves some wouldn't feel as though life isn't worth living.
And on an anthropological level suicide makes no sense, but planty of cultures have practiced it throughout history. The Innuit for example, older people would basically starve themselves to death during hard winters so that the younger people could survive. A different form of suicide but suicide none the less. And they would view that as a selfless act.
From an evolutionary standpoint, yes, suicide makes no sense, but many things we do don't make any sense, evolutionarily speaking. Being in a monogamous relationship is an example. But our social and cultural structure has helped to define this as a desireable trait.
Saying that it is not a good excuse to kill yourself because you are sad, psychologically or chemically(often one in the same) is very true. But it seems like you fail to grip the difference of being sad or blue and suffering from clinical depression(of which there are many levels). And that's the motive for suicide I'm speaking more about. Its like the difference between having a cold and having lung cancer.
1. Wikipedia says the following about suicide among the Inuit elderly: "This practice was not universal among the Inuit — some bands never had such practices — and was only tolerated under truly desperate conditions". In fact, they said infanticide was more common during food shortages. So, I think it would be helpful if you provided a better example.
2. Being monogamous DOES make sense in anthropological and evolutionary terms. In fact the reason, is that the male is compelled, by innate biological impulses, to stay with the female so that his DNA will be propagated -- children are provided for safely until they reach adulthood, and so on, and so on. In fact, people will tell you nowadays that social dislocation and dissolution has led to this instinct being defeated.
3. Your "sad and blue" vs. clinical depression comparison is interesting. A person suffering from clinical depression that has a chemical basis can often be treated very successfully. In those cases, it make utterly no sense to commit suicide when that help is available. If you are sad or blue, it makes even less sense.
1. Wikipedia says the following about suicide among the Inuit elderly: "This practice was not universal among the Inuit — some bands never had such practices — and was only tolerated under truly desperate conditions". In fact, they said infanticide was more common during food shortages. So, I think it would be helpful if you provided a better example.
2. Being monogamous DOES make sense in anthropological and evolutionary terms. In fact the reason, is that the male is compelled, by innate biological impulses, to stay with the female so that his DNA will be propagated -- children are provided for safely until they reach adulthood, and so on, and so on. In fact, people will tell you nowadays that social dislocation and dissolution has led to this instinct being defeated.
3. Your "sad and blue" vs. clinical depression comparison is interesting. A person suffering from clinical depression that has a chemical basis can often be treated very successfully. In those cases, it make utterly no sense to commit suicide when that help is available. If you are sad or blue, it makes even less sense.
It is not that easy to correct clinical depression, first of all it takes weeks for meds to keep in second of all so many meds counteract so many different things not to mention some meds might not work at all and some meds might make you worse you are talking about the brain here that controls ever part of you.
I would know I have clinical depression and I have had scans done on my brain, I am on meds and I still have severe anxiety.
Anyway let's say it is JUST you and your wife. Lets say she is at a point in her life she wants it to be done, for whatever reason you don't understand and your won't understand cause it is not your brain, but you feel she is being selfish cause she isn't thinking about you and your feelings and how it will effect you. notice all the you's??? Why is it YOU are not being selfish in wanting her to live a live she is not wanting to live??
Diane, to be realistic, it would be helpful for you to explain a scenario where someone "is at that point in her life that she wants it to be done". For example, what? Just because it isn't my brain doesn't mean that I am wrong and they are right. That kind of logic could be used to rationalize virtually any act, good or bad.
And once again, that logic could be used to also justify the suicide of someone who left behind children who could not fend for themselves. Could it not? A single mother, living alone, commits suicide. Her toddler child then starves to death. Wasn't that suicide a selfish act? It resulted in the death of someone else. If it's not selfish, just let me know. But for the same reason that that mother should pull herself together for the sake of her child, she could also pull herself together for the sake of friends and relatives who would be emotionally devastated by her suicide.
QUOTE(diane26)
Suicide will never make sense, trying to get it to make sense will only make it more confusing. But until you have walked a mile in the shoes of a person that is at that point to say who they are and what they are all about is bullshit to say the least.
A person who has OVERCOME severe mental trauma and battled that war will come close to understanding but even there case would be different since we are all different. But I personaly feel it is selfish to trash someone who has commited suicide cause it hurt you and to not stop and consider what they are going through. Maybe if more people cared about others feelings and less about themselves some wouldn't feel as though life isn't worth living.
Why does making an assessment of someone's activities, when you haven't walked in their shoes, "bullshit to say the least"? You might as well absolve yourself from all assessments of people who you haven't had the same life experiences as. For example, a person who robs and kills the mother of three children may have had a tough life. Can we judge him or incarcerate him because we haven't walked in his shoes? Most people would say we could.
Diane, to be realistic, it would be helpful for you to explain a scenario where someone "is at that point in her life that she wants it to be done". For example, what? Just because it isn't my brain doesn't mean that I am wrong and they are right. That kind of logic could be used to rationalize virtually any act, good or bad.
And once again, that logic could be used to also justify the suicide of someone who left behind children who could not fend for themselves. Could it not? A single mother, living alone, commits suicide. Her toddler child then starves to death. Wasn't that suicide a selfish act? It resulted in the death of someone else. If it's not selfish, just let me know. But for the same reason that that mother should pull herself together for the sake of her child, she could also pull herself together for the sake of friends and relatives who would be emotionally devastated by her suicide.
Why does making an assessment of someone's activities, when you haven't walked in their shoes, "bullshit to say the least"? You might as well absolve yourself from all assessments of people who you haven't had the same life experiences as. For example, a person who robs and kills the mother of three children may have had a tough life. Can we judge him or incarcerate him because we haven't walked in his shoes? Most people would say we could.
Issac in that situation of the mother I would say what is the most selfish is that she did not find her child adequate care before killing herself, it is sad to me the child will grow up without there mom it's sad that the child will most likely blame themselves. BUT I am not going to judge the mom when I have no idea the kind of pain she felt inside.
Mental illness is not a black and white issue and it appears to me that you are making it that, it wont be it never will be. I was a single mom and I did take 20 something odd vicodin to kill myself, my actions at the time and how I felt were anything but selfish, if anything I was being selfless or at least with a severe mental illness that is what you feel inside.
I have overcome a lot since that time and my mental illness was not of any fault of my own. It's what happens when severe sexual, physical and emotional abuse happens to kids, allthough I am mentally 100times better now than I ever was than can guarntee you if I lost all my kids tomorrow I would kill myself. My children and my love for them are what now keeps me alive and going and if I lost all of them I would not want to live.
Imagine loosing your wife and kids, I know that they are the most important part of your life, that pain you feel inside everyday you loose any sense of rationality and logic and sorry but at the time you aren't thinking about how it might affect your sister or brothr or aunt, you are thinking about how all this pain inside is unbearable and you just want it to stop just want it to go away for a little bit not no matter what it takes.
I am glad my life was saved and if I could see than what I do now I would have never attempted it, lord knows at 14 I tried very hard to kill myself to stop the abuse with no luck, and everything did work out in the end but you don't see that when you are mentally not there.
You say you can understand if someone is terminal well mental illness can very much feel like a terminal cancer that you are dying from.
To me it is selfish for you to sit here not knowing what it is like to be in that much pain and make the issue black and white, I say not knowing cause you have said yourself before when we have talked you have never had to go through this or that and had a good life.
Also that kind of logic is exactly what you are saying, you are saying you are right they are selfish yet the same could be said for you, wanting someone to live in agony day after day and suffer with all that emotional pain why you sit there enjoying life and not understanding seems beyond selfish to me, You want them to LIVE with the pain so that you don't have to have the pain if they die???
