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Posted by: diane26 Apr 11 2006, 11:00 PM

week the class is on Tuesdays and Thursday nights and I find out my teacher is MISSING.

The last time he was seen was on the last day of March.... Since I missed last week I had no idea but apparently there was no class cause he has just dissapered. this is like the third OC teacher to go missing in the past year.

THey just posted it on the News site today.


Here is the link

http://kitsapsun.com/bsun/local/article/0,2403,BSUN_19088_4613530,00.html


I am in shock I have never known anyone on a personal level that has gone missing.

Posted by: Isaac_Putin Apr 11 2006, 11:05 PM

I had a professor who died the day before the first class.

Posted by: diane26 Apr 11 2006, 11:07 PM

In a way that would be better but I met him and chatted with him and really liked him he was a very funny cool teacher and I was looking forward to his class and now I dunno. I am not sure how to handle this I have all sorts of morbid horrifc thoughts of what has happened going through my head and today like the whole class was going on as if no big deal and I sat there in shock. Maybe I am weird but I would hope if I went missing people would care.

Posted by: Bobaloo Apr 11 2006, 11:54 PM

It's probably in poor taste to make a joke about a matter like this. but that's what I do.

here goes.

so he's an OC professor, as in obsessive/compulsive??? Maybe he suffers from the condition and just can get to work because he just can't be sure if he tapped the mailbox three times in the proper place and then if he scratched his nose exactly 37 steps after walking around the lamp post 3 times backwards then forwards.

Seriuosly, though. I hope they find the guy, that's pretty freaky that someone you know just goes missing like that. Maybe I can help find him. i'll chekc out the news link and see if I find any clues.

Posted by: foxy lady Apr 12 2006, 09:20 AM

That is awful news, let's hope they find him!


In the meantime Diane, I would work my butt off studying and impress the heck out of him when he returns.....just an idea!

Be sure to keep us posted

Posted by: Bobaloo Apr 12 2006, 10:58 AM

Welp, no clues. But there's a sale at Penny's

Posted by: Gnappster Apr 12 2006, 01:06 PM

The weirdest thing is that he is the third OC prof to go missing in a year...What happened to the other 2?

Posted by: diane26 Apr 12 2006, 01:28 PM

Foxy the only good thing is the new professor seems really kick ass and since he doesnt have our grades from the first test he gave us a multiple choice open book take home test for the first 4 chapters to be fair.

Also since I was in vegas last week I didnt miss class since there was no class sub wasnt brought in until yesterday.


Thanks Boo I am not a panny's girl though LOL


Gnappy that is what is odd, I found the article on one of the professors, he went for a walk and "vanished" he was found dead with a self inflicted stab wound.

I cant find the article on the other it was a Computer Tech Professor vanished as well, in our school paper which doesnt have a site, I have never heard an update on him but I know it was like Fall quarter I was reading in the Paper about him NEVER HEARD anyhthing on the news about him though or local paper just school paper, doesnt seem to spark any suspicions I guess allthough it has me freaked out.

Posted by: diane26 Apr 17 2006, 02:15 AM

Body Discovered in Park "Might Be" OC Instructor

By Kitsap Sun staff
April 15, 2006

Authorities are investigating the discovery of a body in Olympic National Park that may be an Olympic College instructor who disappeared April 1.

Hikers found the body late Wednesday in the Sol Duc Valley area of the mountainous park, and the case is now under investigation by Clallam County and U.S. National Park officials.

The Sunlink.com
Authorities have not confirmed that the body is that of the missing instructor, Wendell Harris, 57, of Poulsbo. But Harris’ vehicle, a black 1995 Chevy Tahoe, was found at a parking area about a mile away from the body.

"We can’t definitively say it’s him, but in all likelihood, it might be," said Deputy Scott Wilson, spokesman for the Kitsap County Sheriff’s Office.

The cause and manner of death are still under investigation, Wilson said.

Harris was last seen after teaching a class on the OC campus March 31. When he didn’t show up for work on April 1, 2 and 3, a fellow faculty member called police for help.

Neighbors told investigators that Harris had planned to go hiking about the time he went missing, and deputies had been systematically checking trailheads looking for his vehicle.

A temporary faculty member, Harris was applying for a permanent position at the college, Wilson added.

Posted by: CABoobGuy Apr 17 2006, 02:31 AM

A friend of mine drowned at the beach in my second year of high school. They never found his body. Facing a friends death at 15 is tough. We had a few classes together and that year was never the same. Of course, you get over it but don't know when you'll think about it again.

Be careful, Diane. Since it's a night class, walk with other students to your car. Look out for each other and take care.

Posted by: ontippytoes Apr 17 2006, 04:02 AM

What the hell? Prof goes missing and now may be dead? This is the same guy that caught you on RMM, right?

I too lost a friend when I was younger. I was 16 or 17 and he was the same age. He was intelligent, popular, etc...no one had an idea he was troubled. He committed suicide.

Posted by: diane26 Apr 17 2006, 12:29 PM

No not the same professor this is a new quarter he was my phych professor and he was the head of the early childhood education dept. He is the third one to go missing from OC and second to be found dead they havent released how yet.


He was a good guy all I kept thinking about last night was the last time I seen him in class, I had to take one of my sleeping pills to stop thinking about it.

My grandmother commited suicide her and I were never close on a person al level, so far this teacher and a troubled girl I tried helping back in HS are the only to people I have lost on a personal level. It;s sad.

Posted by: natalie Apr 17 2006, 01:07 PM

I also was only about 15 when this guy named Tyler was wlking in the hallways towards the gym and had a massive stroke. The teachers tried so hard to revive him. Thank-god it was the end of the day so barely any students saw it happen. They didn't even know anything was wrong with his heart. He was a popular good guy who was in a really good band and the Kelowna Rockets (a hockey team in Kelowna B.C.) were hoping to sign him.

Posted by: diane26 Apr 17 2006, 09:41 PM

Well they just said on the news **can't find it on the news site yet** that it was confirmed to be my teacher. Said he died of suicide.

So of three Missing Olympic College teachers since I have been there 2 have been found and both commited suicide yet my teacher gave NO signs of this to come. Nadda.

Also they said he got a concealed weapons permit right before why do you need a concealed weapons permit to commit suicide you just register your gun no need to get permission to conceal it.

Nothing ever makes sense.

Posted by: Bobaloo Apr 17 2006, 09:58 PM

WTF!!! I'm glad that I will never understand this, but... i will never understand what could be so horrible that killing yourself is the best "solution" you can come up with.

I wonder if we could have saved him if we emailed him a link to this web site??

Posted by: UncleBuck Apr 17 2006, 10:05 PM

were you in both of those prof's. classes d26

Posted by: diane26 Apr 17 2006, 10:08 PM

NO ironically out of three people I have known to die all 3 commited suicide. The husband thought it was funny to imply I must drive people insane.

Posted by: diane26 Apr 17 2006, 10:10 PM

I can understand it and unless someone has waged the mental war of life vs death it is something I would say is impossible to understand.

I am not nor hope I will ever be at that point again but the sterotypes regarding suicide are way off base.

Ironically he was a psych professor.

Posted by: UncleBuck Apr 17 2006, 10:12 PM

Suicide is a very selfish act

Posted by: diane26 Apr 17 2006, 10:12 PM

I disagree.

Posted by: Bobaloo Apr 17 2006, 10:13 PM

I agree

Posted by: diane26 Apr 17 2006, 10:14 PM

*sighs*

Posted by: UncleBuck Apr 17 2006, 10:17 PM

had to deal with it this weekend actually a good friends son took his own life and left us all wondering why. A very selfish mean thing to do to your loved ones leaving them wondering what 'they ' did wrong.

Posted by: diane26 Apr 17 2006, 10:18 PM

Maybe it is selfish to think its all about everyone else, Maybe the person was in such distress that they thought they were making things better. Maybe I should not even go down this road cause not even a pair of titties will keep it from getting ugly.

Posted by: Bobaloo Apr 17 2006, 10:19 PM

Like I said earlier, I'm glad I never will have to understand it, but...

I'm pretty sure the only feelings a person about to commit suicide is considering are their own. They may try to blame other factors or people or what have you, but they are considering their own feelings. If others' were considered, they would understand that suicide is not really a choise others would have you choose.

I don't know. In the wise words of the much more verbose Dennis Miller, "That's just my opinion. I could be wrong."

Posted by: Bobaloo Apr 17 2006, 10:21 PM

yeah, but what about 3 pairs of titties, a guy named Bobaloo, a hot tub, some baby oil, a video and still camera, two tripods, two more pairs of titties, a water bed, and some coffee?

Posted by: diane26 Apr 17 2006, 10:27 PM

Well I tried killing myself a few times didn't work than I made a serious attempt and it was "in my mind at the time" I completely unselfish act, I was doing it for my son "or so I thought at the time" it was a phone call from a worried friend and a call to 911 and a night of drinking charcoal in the ER that saved my life, and with lots of help I see things a whole lot differently now but when someone has a mental illness they do not think logically like a person not in that situation.

Sure some people kill themselves for selfish reasons such as pay back to a ex lover or murder suicides and what have you, but I would venture to say this is not the norm, and when you are in that situation contiplating life or death and stuff usually you are thinking of those around you and you are convinced of how much better there life will be after they mourn your death,.


Just the opinion from someone that has been there and spent many of years to get myself on a better path.

Posted by: diane26 Apr 17 2006, 10:28 PM

Can Wigglez and Nat be the extra titties too??

Posted by: Bobaloo Apr 17 2006, 10:35 PM

well, you get the idea. there's not enough smiley in the world to express the amount of pleasure it would bring me to be in the company of you, Nat, and Wigglez

Posted by: Bobaloo Apr 17 2006, 10:42 PM

I didn't say that the person contemplating suicide is a selfish person; I mean that the act itself is selfish, whether the victim knows it's selfish or not. Selfish people (like kids who won't share) don't know they're being selfish. Or maybe it's really more inconsideration.

Interjection: Ironically there's a commercial advertising the overnight walk which is meant to spread suicide awareness and prevention.

Anyway... Obviously there's something else going through a person's mind other than rational thought. While it may have seemed selfless at the time, now that you've gotten help and are able to think back on the time, don't you see how had you committed the act how it may have been on the selfish side. Would your son have been better off??? HELL NO!!! It was probably hard f-ing work to get help and get back on tract, but think of how much better things are that you're here in your loved ones' lives that had you succeeded.

then again, I could be talking out my ass. I am fortunate enough not to have had any close encounters with someone contemplating suicide. But I tried to think it through logically for this post and I think I at the very least make a little bit of sense.

Posted by: diane26 Apr 17 2006, 10:49 PM

At the time I think he would have been better even now thinking logically, the situation I was in, the life he would have had when my parents adopted him would have been a really good life. He was very young so he would not have remembered me he would have the always there question though. For that I don't know how much that would have effected his life. B ut I know he would have been provided with a very loving home.

As far as myself besides my children I only have one stong rock in my life. Everyone else I don't think would have there life changed if I were gone, I mean I know some people would be sad but would be fine moving on, my step mom would take it the hardest after the kids but I would not get to that point now anyway.

Regardless I hate hearing about what a selfish thing it is because it is a very complex situation most of the time.. I always here how selfesh the person was how they wanted the easy way out of life how they were so weak and this and that and it really is not that black and white and to really understand I think you would have to have been that deep into that darkness and got out of it. I mean really in it not the times every now and than or as a teen when you were grounded or something. But when you were seriously contiplating ending yourown life.


But yes I can see for the most part what you are getting at. Many things in life are selfish for the most part most humans are selfish people by nature.

Posted by: UncleBuck Apr 17 2006, 10:59 PM

well said

Posted by: Bobaloo Apr 17 2006, 11:11 PM

I can say that "at the time" isn't the only time. No matter what was going on in your life at the time, there is a future ahead of that time. you probably couldn't think it all through then, but look at the changes you've made and how you have the awesome opportunity to be a positive influence in people's lives, whehter ou sons, other family members', or just other people you run across. Oftentimes you may not even realize you're being a postive influence. Your son may have been too young at the time, but you knew he'd grow up wondering. Then the rest of his life he would have had to wonder if his being born was a factor. And that probalby isn't the case, but he would still have to wonder that.

And, yes, humans are selfish. The fact remains that I could never know or understand what was going thorugh your mind at the time. I know no one will ever understand what your professor's hardships were. Everyone has their own hell. For me to say that yours or anyone else's hell is any better or worse than mine simply is not possible. But on the same token, a person who commits suicide has not properly evaluted the repurcussions of their actions on all concerned at all times down the road.

It goes without saying that I'm glad you had the strength and support to work through your problems. I applaud you for overcoming your struggle

Besides, just think how horrible it would be if you never got to meet me.

****Okay. I keep getting phone calls and getting distracted... So I'm just going to send this without proofreading... i hope it makes sense.

Posted by: diane26 Apr 18 2006, 02:26 AM

Thanks BOO, I see life in a whole new light than I ever saw it before and I am 99.9999% sure that I would never consider that path again, at least not as long as medication is around HAHA J/K sortof.

Anyway I been crying enough about my teacher **yes I cry you morons ** so I will step out of the deep thoughts for now.

Meeting you was well worth drinking the charcoal!!!

Posted by: natalie Apr 18 2006, 01:02 PM

Ah Diane I knew you wouldn't forget me. How totally unselfish of you.

Posted by: diane26 Apr 18 2006, 02:45 PM

I could never forget

And FOxy and Bush and Jlynn and the list goes on

Posted by: Bobaloo Apr 18 2006, 03:51 PM

That hot tub is looking all the more enticing!!!

Posted by: foxy lady Apr 18 2006, 04:02 PM

You can count me.....wouldn't miss it

Posted by: natalie Apr 18 2006, 04:15 PM

Looks like less and less room for you. You can be the towel boy. Hubby can take pix! And topless is a rule ladies so Diane drink up if you need the confidence boost or motivation or whatever you wanna call it.

Posted by: diane26 Apr 18 2006, 04:21 PM

Liquid Courage come to me

Posted by: foxy lady Apr 18 2006, 04:28 PM

Hell Diane I'll even bring it for ya......what do you drink hun?

Posted by: diane26 Apr 18 2006, 04:34 PM

Schmirnoff please

Posted by: Bobaloo Apr 18 2006, 04:39 PM

I'd be more than happy to be the towel boy. now where in the heck did I put those towels? Oh, well. I guess I'll just have to dry you ladies off myself

Posted by: foxy lady Apr 18 2006, 04:41 PM

Consider it done

Posted by: diane26 Apr 18 2006, 04:48 PM

So when is orgi I mean party I can hardly wait.

Posted by: foxy lady Apr 18 2006, 06:20 PM

I'm waiting to be told the date

Posted by: belicked6924 Apr 18 2006, 11:55 PM

There was a very serious issue being discused here and thought I would chime in with my 2 cents (cause that's about all it's worh on eBay)


I have to say that no matter how others interpret it suicide is an unknowingly selfish act. By this I mean that to everyone else it's a selfish act but for the person commiting it (in general) it is a very selfless act. Having been very close myself at different stages in my life, even after my son was born I had completly convinced myself about how much better off the world would be without me. How much better my son's life would be. I was the last person that I was thinking about. Most of it had to do financially because of the situation my son would have received a large life insurance settlement plus my retirement funds, plus social security that was equal to about half of my gross pay at the time, but anywho. A person that is deeply depressed like that continually beats themselves up, imagine the weird kid in high school getting picked on daily now take all that and do it to yourself.

Like I said just my 2 cents. Now I'm done being serious for a long while (I hope) back to the fun and smartassedness.

Posted by: jlynn Apr 26 2006, 11:39 AM

I know, I'm a little slow at reading things around here...

But still.

Posted by: jlynn Apr 26 2006, 11:52 AM

And suicide...wow. I'll skip all my psych-major mumbo jumbo and just go off of personal experience.

I was 12 when my grandfather committed suicide. I knew what had happpend, and why it had happened, and at the time, I wasn't angry, nor did I feel it was selfish. As time went on, though, my feelings changed. I'm still more hurt than anything, and I don't usually feel angry, but I struggle with whether or not it's selfish. At the core of the issue, I don't see why a person wouldn't have the right to do it, it's their own life. But as so many others have said, when you have a family, you have to really consider the effect it will have. I can't help but feel upset that my grandfather wasn't there to see me graduate in the top of my class, that he wasn't there to witness the birth of my brother's first son, his first great grandchild. Maybe that's selfish, but it makes a family feel DAMN inadequate that they weren't worth living for. I've seen the way it can ruin a family, as it did to my mother's side, and I guess maybe that's part of the reason I'm determined to become a psychologist.

Ultimately, we should not be here to pass judgement on these people, but rather to offer help to them, to let them know that there's always hope. Once you hit bottom, there's nowhere to go but up.

It makes me think of that Bright Eyes song, "No Lies, Just Love." I have to cry when I hear it, it has a deep emotional attachment for me.

For some reason, I don't think anything I just tried to say came out right.

Posted by: natalie Apr 26 2006, 01:52 PM

I think you did just fine.

Posted by: Isaac_Putin Apr 26 2006, 02:28 PM

Suicide is committed for a variety of reasons, but a lot of psychologists now consider it a hostile, selfish act -- at least where the person isn't incredibly mentally incapacitated (or dying of a terminal disease) when they do it:

For example, if I committed suicide:

1. I would leave two tiny kids who never got a chance to know me. And would wonder about me the rest of their lives. They would also wonder what was lacking in them that I would consider leaving them behind.

2. I wouldn't be able to support my family, and (I believe) most life insurance policies don't pay out on suicide as cause of death.

3. My wife would wonder for the rest of her life what it was that I wasn't telling her, what clues she should have recognized, etc. to detect that I was about to do something. And then that would be combined with bitter resentment for leaving her and the family in such a messed up situation.

4. My other various family members would be devastated. It would probably finish off my mother.

Without being egotistical, it would blow a huge hole in the lives of people close to me. And it would be a wound that could never be completely healed over.

Posted by: somfan Apr 26 2006, 09:05 PM

Diane -
I'm a little slow to react here, but take some interest in your story for several reasons, as you know.

And we may as well discuss it in this normally cheery venue.

Suicide is very perplexing and touches many people, obviously. Having known people who have committed suicide, I share your grief.

Suicide can be something deeply personal but also can be a very social act, even a hostile act as Isaac Putin suggests. Indeed what is acknowledged as the first real sociological work was Emile Durkheim's classic sociological study "Suicide."

At least some people are blaming OC for conditions leading to the 3 suicides committted by full-time middle-aged instructors there. I find this blog on the web, which I would nonetheless take a critical look at:

http://blogs.kitsapsun.com/kitsap/bremerton/archive/2006/04/fouryear_degree_in_bremerton.html
- Somfan

Posted by: somfan Apr 26 2006, 09:15 PM

[quote=somfan,Apr 26 2006, 06:05 PM]
Diane -
I'm a little slow to react here, but take some interest in your story for several reasons, as you know.

And we may as well discuss it in this normally cheery venue.

Suicide is very perplexing and touches many people, obviously. Having known people who have committed suicide, I share your grief.

Suicide can be something deeply personal but also can be a very social act, even a hostile act as Isaac Putin suggests. Indeed what is acknowledged as the first real sociological work was Emile Durkheim's classic sociological study "Suicide."

OC does also offer free counseling services for students. http://www.olympic.edu/Students/StudentServices/CounselingServices/persCouncel.htm
Washngton State also offers counseling to state employees.

But maybe there is something that we also can do as non-professionals to help prevent such tragedies.

Posted by: diane26 Apr 27 2006, 03:11 AM

I want to respond to it but havent had time to really read through the new responses yet so I will tomorrow when i get some time.

Somfan you know I checked the kitsapsun 3 days ago for any updates and they had nothing reported since the body was announced his I don't get it maybe the next school paper will I will look at the link but anyway I will get back to this tomorrow I think.

Posted by: diane26 Apr 27 2006, 03:21 AM

Ok i just read the link real quick WOW somfan, well one that is cool about the 4 year program allthough it doesn't matter to me now that I am moving but it sure will help with the new toll bridge something like 7 bucks round trip just to go to tacoma?? Anyway that will be good since 4 year has a hefty commute.

Anyway on to the other things, I have had many teachers at OC, only ONE of those teachers were bad teachers and she had no business being there at all not to mention the damn woman had to have lung cancer or something and spent half the class hacking up a lung and bumming ciggs and she always mixed up are grades and stuff.

But the rest of the teachers COOL AS HELL. I have some for sure favorites and not cause any favors some I took twice cause I did poorly the first time around but it wasant the teachers fault.

I know my Bio teacher just interviewed for Tenyear sp? and not sure if he got it but if he doesn't it will be a shame. He is one of the most liked and respected teachers of the science dept. He is one of those teachers you wish could just follow you and teach all your classes he makes the class so much fun.

So anyway I have no exp with the deans or big wigs at the college but as far as the professors and the classes I think that was an unfair assumption made by some of those people. I been going for 7 quarters now so I think I have some exp.

That is ALL

Jlynn I will read your posts when I get back it is getting so late, I skimmed a bit of it Ironically the teacher that killed himself was teaching psychology.

Ok for now.

Posted by: jlynn Apr 27 2006, 09:21 AM

I suppose I should've said it in one of the earlier posts, but I'm really sorry to hear about your professor.

Posted by: diane26 Apr 28 2006, 01:30 AM

Jlynn I am sorry to hear about your grandfather, my grandmother commited suicide right before I found out I was pregnant it would have been the first greatgrandchild it was 2 weeks before I found out anyway many family members would say, its to bad she didnt know than she wouldn't have done it. It mad me so angry they some how thought I had the power to stop her had I got pregnant 2 weeks sooner, like damn me, anyway you will make a good psychologist, It is a field I am very passionate with and have a LOT of exp with but would not persue allthough I am often highly encouraged because I get to personal with people I cant seperate work from home with caring about people so I don't try. But even today I sit in my class so bored cause I know what we are talking ab out and everyone is so Shocked and interested and I am like Duh commen sense people. ANyway way off tanget there, but from reading your posts for a long time now I could see you got what it takes to make a good psychologist comparred to a lot of people I see in my classes going to be one, it scares me what they will do to there patients.

Good luck to you with all of it and I hope you do well.

Your grandpa can see you I am sure I don't believe we are damned to hell if we commit suicide just me, I am sorry he felt so much pain inside he felt death was the best option.

Posted by: diane26 Apr 28 2006, 01:34 AM

Issac where did you get this from "but a lot of psychologists now consider it a hostile, selfish act "????

Posted by: diane26 Apr 28 2006, 01:39 AM

I made a post on that blog somfan.

I would consider a selfish and hostile suicide those of the suicide bombers, although in there mind they thing they are doing good. Things we always be how we choose to see them in our own personal views so on a topic like this it is impossible to generalize, Sociologist do not get far enough recognition I think.

Posted by: CrazyJoe131 Apr 28 2006, 01:41 AM

There's an Italian tradition where, when somebody kills themselves, they take them outside of the town and bury them where two roads cross, becasue that person came to a crossroads in life and didn't have the strength to carry on, and now the people that did have the strength can walk over them forever. And yes, I do know people that have killed themselves, my history teacher who was like an uncle to me did this year.

Posted by: diane26 Apr 28 2006, 01:46 AM

Im sorry to hear about that crazy joe.

Posted by: somfan Apr 28 2006, 03:24 AM

I read your post on that blog. It's good that nowadays there are public forums like blogs and RMM where one can share one's feelings openly.

Posted by: Isaac_Putin Apr 28 2006, 12:17 PM

I got if from tons of stuff I've read. I don't keep reference notes. However, here is an example:

http://www.coping.org/control/suicide.htm

If you are successful in committing suicide, you will have committed:

An extremely self-centered and selfish act which will hurt and emotionally scar the people you leave behind.
An enormous "get back'' or act of revenge which will no doubt leave the survivors with intense guilt, self-doubt, anger, bitterness, rage, and emotional trauma.
Your last effort to control people in your life.

The above is written by two PhD's.

Posted by: diane26 Apr 28 2006, 12:22 PM

The exact kind of people that annoy me. I wonder how many of them simply got there psych knowledge from reading books or how many actually have been through a lot of shit in there life.

TO me expierance, is the differance between a good psychologist and a wack job. I am not sure if I even want to read the link the blurb you posted is enough to boil my blood.

All the Docs I have met in my life relating to the field would not agree with that.

Posted by: Isaac_Putin Apr 28 2006, 12:29 PM

It's a controversial topic. What makes the doc's you have read the expert? There's a link that I didn't provide, but it was hospital release notes for a patient who was suicidal. As part of the exit interview, the person "acknowledged that the act of suicide was selfish". The doctors noted it as progress and a factor (one of them) in releasing the person.

That is not to say, however, that there are people who are so mentally disturbed, or in such emotional pain, that they are incapable of considering the effect they will have on others.

There was also a great link where relatives and friends of people who committed suicide talked about the devastation they feel at what happened. And how some of them now are considering suicide themselves.

Posted by: Gnappster Apr 28 2006, 12:48 PM

I'm not gonna get into an argument about suicidal motives, but I think we can agree(but we probably won't) that people that take their own lives do it for many different reasons, just as taking someone else's life(murder) is done for many different reasons. To say taking someone off life support and drive by shooting someone are the same is stupid, so why should suicide be much different.

Sure some people kill themselves to "get back" at others, but some (and probably a lot) of people suffering from deep depression do it as just the opposite or for reasons that a "normal" person just couldn't comprehend. It's like trying to explain what -40 winter day feels like to a person who has lived their life in Florida. They just wouldn't understand it no matter how you tried to explain it even if they thought they did. Then take them up to Saskatchewan in the middle of Janaury and they'd be like, "Oh my Lord! I had NO IDEA!" Yeah a rudimentary analogy but it illustrates the point pretty well. When someone's brain chemistry starts getting messed up, it really is hard to think straight.

And that is all.

Posted by: diane26 Apr 28 2006, 12:48 PM

It wasn't docs I read Issac it was Doc's I have SPOKE TOO, and talked about a lot of personal exp. with them mine and there, I have lost 3 people to suicide now so I know the effects and I was almost there myself as well so I know that side of it as well.

I don't agree with people becoming shrinks that have no life exp in dealing with the traumas they are gonna help people with, I mean at least something to give you more than just book knowledge on what people are going through there are people in my class that will talk straight from the book and when you ask them questions that would require a personal exp they draw blank and go back to quoting different therorist and stuff. These people will sit there and pass on so many judgments and gerneralize and sterotype in class discussions and it makes me sick.

Posted by: diane26 Apr 28 2006, 12:50 PM

You are exactly correct.

That is all.

Posted by: Isaac_Putin Apr 28 2006, 01:01 PM

Diane, I'm not sure how any of what you said is a rebuttal to the idea that suicide might be selfish.

If you solve a problem of yours, knowing in advance it will do great harm to somebody around you, a lot of people - theoreticians as well as people "on the ground" - would agree that that was selfish.

And to respond to someone's earlier thread, being selfish is not necessarily a deliberate act or one done with intent. Taking the last coke out of the fridge can be selfish but not done deliberately. What I'm saying is that selfishness is not necessarily done with intent.

Posted by: diane26 Apr 28 2006, 01:08 PM

Issac I already talked about the selfish part of it in this thread. But I could also say that it is selfish for the family members to think about only there feelings and the impact on them why aren't they thinking about what the person was going through and how sad life must have been for them to feel the need to kill themselves.

Like stated though Suicide is commited for a variety of reason's I am only speaking about the ones that commit it because of a mental breakdown in themselves, not as an act of revenge or religion or spite what have you but I am talking about the people that kill themselves because they are at such a low point in there life they feel death is the only answer.

The majority of people that kill themselves are for this reason, who says taking the last coke is selfish?? Is it selfish that someone not there felt it should be for them?? It can go both ways but regardless the statement you put up from whoever was very harsh and cold and black and white, mental issues will not be and will never be BLACK AND WHITE so for someone to make such a matter a fact statement regarding a very greay area is showing there own ignorance and lack of knowlege on the subject.

Anyway thats enough for me for now I am gonna go to class.

Posted by: Gnappster Apr 28 2006, 01:16 PM

focussing on it being a "selfish" act is a little short sighted, especially when what is considered selfish, by whom, and when, is pretty subjective. If a hermit living by himself with no ties to anyone kills himself, does it cease to be a selfish act?

Posted by: Isaac_Putin Apr 28 2006, 02:00 PM

gnappster, I believe that you have stated probably one of the few cases where committing suicide isn't selfish.

Others include police officers or someone who sacrifices their lives to save others. Although, that is not usually deemed suicide....

However, when you are going to leave grieving mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers, and (God help you) children behind? Come on.... After reading the messages of those left behind, I'm pretty convinced that suicide, in most cases, is the OPPOSITE of a selfless act. For example, if you were really considering your children's needs and feelings more than your own, would you commit suicide? I don't think so. Or considering your siblings and/or parents? No.

And, please forgive me, for not tracking all the way through this thread, what are the legitimite reasons for killing yourself, other than to save someone else or avoid the final stages of a painful terminal illness? Because you are sad, psychologically or chemically? Is that a good excuse?

Just on an anthropological level, suicide makes no sense. One of the most basic human instincts (dovetailing with Maslow's hierarchy) is self survival and propagation of the species. Someone who self terminates is not thinking in their right mind.

Posted by: Gnappster Apr 28 2006, 03:57 PM

I never said it was a GOOD decision, but the intent is often one of goodness, or negating that, at least not one of being selfish. And being chemically imbalanced isn't a good excuse either although it is often a cause.

And on an anthropological level suicide makes no sense, but planty of cultures have practiced it throughout history. The Innuit for example, older people would basically starve themselves to death during hard winters so that the younger people could survive. A different form of suicide but suicide none the less. And they would view that as a selfless act.

From an evolutionary standpoint, yes, suicide makes no sense, but many things we do don't make any sense, evolutionarily speaking. Being in a monogamous relationship is an example. But our social and cultural structure has helped to define this as a desireable trait.

Saying that it is not a good excuse to kill yourself because you are sad, psychologically or chemically(often one in the same) is very true. But it seems like you fail to grip the difference of being sad or blue and suffering from clinical depression(of which there are many levels). And that's the motive for suicide I'm speaking more about. Its like the difference between having a cold and having lung cancer.

Personally, I've never felt the deep reaching power of depression. But I've struggled with bouts of Sesonal Affective Disorder years back, and when you're in that state of mind it really is like you're not yourself. I've never felt even close to suicide or anything, but it's never a case of "cheering up". It's like a feeling you can't shake. It really is hard to explain. But having experienced it even to a tiny degree, I can how people end up how they do.

BTW, I cured my S.A.D. with lots of exercise. Endorphin, testoterone and seatonin dumps in the brain are better than any drug!

Posted by: diane26 Apr 28 2006, 04:19 PM

Issac, to say it is selfish depends on what side of the fence you are on. There will always be the other side.

The hermit man wasn't selfish cause he had no one else to love him??? How sad is that??

Anyway let's say it is JUST you and your wife. Lets say she is at a point in her life she wants it to be done, for whatever reason you don't understand and your won't understand cause it is not your brain, but you feel she is being selfish cause she isn't thinking about you and your feelings and how it will effect you. notice all the you's??? Why is it YOU are not being selfish in wanting her to live a live she is not wanting to live??


I mean to look at things like that we can find something selfish in about every thing we do cause as long as you are putting yourself and your feelings first you are being selfish.

Suicide will never make sense, trying to get it to make sense will only make it more confusing. But until you have walked a mile in the shoes of a person that is at that point to say who they are and what they are all about is bullshit to say the least.

A person who has OVERCOME severe mental trauma and battled that war will come close to understanding but even there case would be different since we are all different. But I personaly feel it is selfish to trash someone who has commited suicide cause it hurt you and to not stop and consider what they are going through. Maybe if more people cared about others feelings and less about themselves some wouldn't feel as though life isn't worth living.

Posted by: Isaac_Putin Apr 28 2006, 10:39 PM

1. Wikipedia says the following about suicide among the Inuit elderly: "This practice was not universal among the Inuit — some bands never had such practices — and was only tolerated under truly desperate conditions". In fact, they said infanticide was more common during food shortages. So, I think it would be helpful if you provided a better example.

2. Being monogamous DOES make sense in anthropological and evolutionary terms. In fact the reason, is that the male is compelled, by innate biological impulses, to stay with the female so that his DNA will be propagated -- children are provided for safely until they reach adulthood, and so on, and so on. In fact, people will tell you nowadays that social dislocation and dissolution has led to this instinct being defeated.

3. Your "sad and blue" vs. clinical depression comparison is interesting. A person suffering from clinical depression that has a chemical basis can often be treated very successfully. In those cases, it make utterly no sense to commit suicide when that help is available. If you are sad or blue, it makes even less sense.

Posted by: diane26 Apr 28 2006, 10:44 PM

It is not that easy to correct clinical depression, first of all it takes weeks for meds to keep in second of all so many meds counteract so many different things not to mention some meds might not work at all and some meds might make you worse you are talking about the brain here that controls ever part of you.

I would know I have clinical depression and I have had scans done on my brain, I am on meds and I still have severe anxiety.

Posted by: Isaac_Putin Apr 28 2006, 10:55 PM

Diane, to be realistic, it would be helpful for you to explain a scenario where someone "is at that point in her life that she wants it to be done". For example, what? Just because it isn't my brain doesn't mean that I am wrong and they are right. That kind of logic could be used to rationalize virtually any act, good or bad.

And once again, that logic could be used to also justify the suicide of someone who left behind children who could not fend for themselves. Could it not? A single mother, living alone, commits suicide. Her toddler child then starves to death. Wasn't that suicide a selfish act? It resulted in the death of someone else. If it's not selfish, just let me know. But for the same reason that that mother should pull herself together for the sake of her child, she could also pull herself together for the sake of friends and relatives who would be emotionally devastated by her suicide.



Why does making an assessment of someone's activities, when you haven't walked in their shoes, "bullshit to say the least"? You might as well absolve yourself from all assessments of people who you haven't had the same life experiences as. For example, a person who robs and kills the mother of three children may have had a tough life. Can we judge him or incarcerate him because we haven't walked in his shoes? Most people would say we could.

Posted by: diane26 Apr 28 2006, 11:08 PM

Issac in that situation of the mother I would say what is the most selfish is that she did not find her child adequate care before killing herself, it is sad to me the child will grow up without there mom it's sad that the child will most likely blame themselves. BUT I am not going to judge the mom when I have no idea the kind of pain she felt inside.

Mental illness is not a black and white issue and it appears to me that you are making it that, it wont be it never will be. I was a single mom and I did take 20 something odd vicodin to kill myself, my actions at the time and how I felt were anything but selfish, if anything I was being selfless or at least with a severe mental illness that is what you feel inside.

I have overcome a lot since that time and my mental illness was not of any fault of my own. It's what happens when severe sexual, physical and emotional abuse happens to kids, allthough I am mentally 100times better now than I ever was than can guarntee you if I lost all my kids tomorrow I would kill myself. My children and my love for them are what now keeps me alive and going and if I lost all of them I would not want to live.

Imagine loosing your wife and kids, I know that they are the most important part of your life, that pain you feel inside everyday you loose any sense of rationality and logic and sorry but at the time you aren't thinking about how it might affect your sister or brothr or aunt, you are thinking about how all this pain inside is unbearable and you just want it to stop just want it to go away for a little bit not no matter what it takes.

I am glad my life was saved and if I could see than what I do now I would have never attempted it, lord knows at 14 I tried very hard to kill myself to stop the abuse with no luck, and everything did work out in the end but you don't see that when you are mentally not there.

You say you can understand if someone is terminal well mental illness can very much feel like a terminal cancer that you are dying from.

To me it is selfish for you to sit here not knowing what it is like to be in that much pain and make the issue black and white, I say not knowing cause you have said yourself before when we have talked you have never had to go through this or that and had a good life.

Posted by: diane26 Apr 28 2006, 11:10 PM

Also that kind of logic is exactly what you are saying, you are saying you are right they are selfish yet the same could be said for you, wanting someone to live in agony day after day and suffer with all that emotional pain why you sit there enjoying life and not understanding seems beyond selfish to me, You want them to LIVE with the pain so that you don't have to have the pain if they die???

Posted by: diane26 Apr 28 2006, 11:18 PM

Issac

check your email.

Posted by: somfan Apr 28 2006, 11:23 PM

Knowing how easily and quickly one can take one's life and how complex human behavior and motivations can be, I believe that it is simplistic to ascribe a single motive to the act of suicide.

There are, nevertheless, many people who have attempted suicide who have nearly succeeded and then lived on to regret the attempt. There certainly must be lots of research done on these subjects.

Rather than quoting Wikipedia, a source that cannot be taken as being reliable, maybe someone ought to have a look in Psych Abstracts for studies appearing in
peer-reviewed, scholarly journals (even e-journals) on this topic.

Although, I do find the discussion going on here to be interesting and worthwhile, doing a little research might shed light on the topic.

Posted by: diane26 Apr 28 2006, 11:26 PM

Been there done that not only have done research have also been "studied" LOL

But I am done with this topic for now anyway hits to close to home for me and very few things on the net get me upset in real life and when it does it is my que to take a break.

Posted by: Isaac_Putin Apr 28 2006, 11:28 PM

If you remember, I didn't start the discussion by saying that I personally felt this way in all instances. I like to look at things from different angles and sometimes I debate something from the other side even if I don't hold a strong opinion.

I honestly don't know if a person who has viewed the inclination toward suicide from person experience can argue this dispassionately or in a disinterested manner. But I'm going from the assumption you can.

If someone is suicidal, do you think they would be rational enough to try to find someone to take care of their children? It seems kind of unlikely to me. And what is the suicidal person going to tell the "prospective" parent the reason for giving the kids away?

If I lost my wife and kids, I doubt I would feel suicidal. In fact, I am inclined to feel obligated to do something to honor them, not immolate myself. I'd probably become a priest.

I still don't see the mental illness/terminal illness comparison. Has anybody ever died directly from depression/anxiety/bipolar disorder? I can't think of any cases. If the person honestly felt like they were dying from it, they probably wouldn't need to try to commit suicide because they believe they would die soon anyway, wouldn't they?

But once again, I don't feel like I understand the circumstances you feel like it would be a good idea or unselfish to commit suicide. By that I mean, what are your limits? Like, would it be okay if someone committed suicide if they had an otherwise great life, but got an F on a test? Or their boyfriend dumped them? Is it ever okay for a 12-year-old to commit suicide? Where do you draw the line? Is there any point, ever, in intervening?

From my standpoint, I said someone with a terminal, debilitating illness (Lou Gehrig's disease, late-stage cancer). I also said a hermit committing suicide would not be selfish, if no one cared about him. I admit it would be sad that no one cared about him, but if he doesn't impact anybody emotionally, physically, etc., then he hasn't commmitted an act in consideration of himself, and to the detriment of someone else.

Posted by: diane26 Apr 28 2006, 11:35 PM

Yes people have died from mental illness its called SUICIDE or Murder by suicide. It is directly related from having that mental illness, Besides Religion I don't think I have ever heard of a mentally sane person with a strong emotional balance commiting suicide.


and I have never ONCE said it was a good idea to commit suicide, I also can debate from both sides what I am trying to do is show what it is like on the "other side" since I have first hand knowledge of what it is like to feel at that point. Also yes they could at least try to take measures to make sure there child was cared for, simply asking someone to watch the child would have ensured the child would not have starved to death in the home with this dead body.

Posted by: Isaac_Putin Apr 28 2006, 11:35 PM

Diane, I got the message. Please disregard my last post here. Like I said, I sometimes beat a topic to death to figure out how I feel about it. I am very much on the fence about a lot of issues. I'm not here to drag somebody down with a debate like this. At least not intentionally. Take care, everyone.

Posted by: diane26 Apr 28 2006, 11:38 PM

To late I responded already LOL but I just replied back,

have a good night

Posted by: UncleBuck Apr 28 2006, 11:46 PM

I wish you all (no I will not wish this on anyone)could have been at the very sad and senseless funeral of a good friends son this past week that I had to attend. Anyone would think twice about trying to defend the acts of suicide if they had .It has basically destroyed his family and I know that if he only could have seen the hurt he caused he never would have done what he did.
It is a very selfish act, and I can not understand it,and I don't think that any so called 'expert' can.

Posted by: diane26 Apr 29 2006, 12:00 AM

My grandmother commited suicide it but a divider right down the family half do not speak to eachother anymore, I think I know first hand what it does to a family, I am also not defending it persay more so given insite to the other side of it. I am not an expert but I CAN understand it. I don't recomend it, I don't think its a good thing but I do understand it from both sides. Thanks.

Posted by: Gnappster Apr 29 2006, 10:51 AM

OK, I didn't read the 5000 word essays since this post, cuz I'm a lazy bastard, but just to address these point.

1. Seppuku among samurais.

2. A male would want to spread his DNA across as wide a spectrum as possible not just with one female. I concede it could be argued either way, but it is hardly set in stone as to which one is correct.

3. Exactly my point, which is why society as a whole needs to be better educated on the subject and be more tolerant and understanding. People with depression are often looked at as weak or over emotional. Many people suffering from it feel they should just gut it out.

And that really is all.

Posted by: belicked6924 May 2 2006, 10:56 PM

I know beating the dead horse (insert smilie here), but it seems that a lot of people missed this post Yes it's from personal experience, yes I've seen a declared suicide hurt my family (a friend of the family).

I also just wanted to add that did it occur to anyone that the reason the clinics and all the books refer to suicide as such a selfish act is that they are hoping that the most effective way of reaching through to somebody that is convinced that death is the only way out is through family guilt. If you can convince somebody that they are going to harm someone they love any doubts will stop them from committing suicide. I know it had worked for me in the past.